As well as provides the ordinances. As a person does this the Lord will then show them more that they need to do. Denver Snuffer is no Samuel the Lamanite, either; and quite honestly it triggers little alarm bells for me that his readers would even make such a comparison. People managed to get their calling and elections made sure, and even ulp! As to the underlying topic: I guess the question I keep asking myself is, "what would I do with a visit from the Savior, if I had one?
To my detriment, if the Savior offered what Snuffer offers at this point in time then I - like Peter of old - would be forced to say "depart from me, O Lord, for I am a sinful man. Seems to me that the blessing we ought to be seeking in this life in the short term, anyways isn't the Second Comforter -- Jesus is not an acrobat who puts on shows for those willing to pay the price of admission. Rather, the blessing we should be seeking is, as Peter himself taught, to make our calling and election sure.
If I can get myself to that point, I trust that in time the Savior will reveal Himself to me in whatever way He deems appropriate. The point isn't to make a personal visitation happen. The point is to be living in such a way that we have become the kind of people to whom it could happen. I find it interesting that the prophets of the BoM referred to the veil as the "veil of unbelief.
But one must study out for himself why. The best thing about Denver Snuffer is that he takes very literally some teachings that many outside the Church discount altogether and that some inside the Church seek to make figurative somehow. For example, can we see Christ and stand in his presence while in this mortal state? Yes, we most certainly can, though most of us will not and nor will we be condemned for not having done so.
This is not a sweet dream or a holy lie, it is reality.
But for my taste, Snuffer seems altogether too taken with his own brilliance and spiritual insight as he considers it. Calling Church leaders to repentance, whether done openly or veiled, is outside our stewardship, and is skating dangerously close to the line of apostasy if not well past it.
Peter doesn't urge us to satisfy our desires for a sign by somehow binding Jesus into appearing to us personally. He urges us to make our calling and elections sure. I'm not as concerned about the messenger as I am the message. Somehow I doubt that Snuffer has legions of fans going ga-ga for him merely because of his encouraging people to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, or his encouragement of complete fealty to the Lord's kingdom and its duly appointed stewards. It is absolutely not about seeking a sign. Signs already follow those who believe miracles, wonders, ministering of angels, etc.
We are taught this in Moroni ch. It is exactly about the point of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees and the work and glory of our Savior. Again, only Enoch's people succeeded where everyone else, because of unbelief have fallen short. Anyway, it is not my intention to be argumentative or to dispute. But there is SO much more waiting for each of us.
This will probably be my last post in this thread. Just a friendly reminder that I'm not really interested in having a thread about Denver Snuffer I'm reading the link to a previous thread on him , but about receiving the Second Comforter thanks for the link! It means that as we are brought to the veil, we are sealed unto eternal life by the Savior who makes His abode with us and Who also introduces us to His Father Who also makes His abode with us.
In our endowment, we are only "anointed" to become such, but that is it. This is very important in context and in contrast with those who are not only anointed, but also sealed unto those things given after we have parted the veil and received the greater gift, hence our "endowment.
Most faithful latter-day would say that they look forward to the day when they stand in the physical presence of God. Most believe that it will happen after the final judgement when they gain the Celestial Kingdom and enter into their exaltation. Because that is when they think they we become the kind of person that can stand the 'weight' of Celestial glory. However the restriction on when this happens isn't in the timing, it is in the becoming. Scriptures show that people can and have reached this point while in their mortal life.
We can too if we meet the same requirements. Third Hour Forum Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting. Posted April 25, For those that don't know, here is an excerpt from the book that explains what it's about: It seems that while this concept isn't really taught in church I've never heard it, though I've only been a member for 2 years , it is something that has been taught, such as in Bruce McConkie's " The Ten Blessings of the Priesthood ": Share this post Link to post Share on other sites.
As for me, I won't read his books because he places himself above the Prophet. Posted April 25, edited. Oh ok, that's interesting, I'll check out the previous threads, thanks. Here in this scripture lies your answer: The point is to live in such a way that it WILL. Interesting that you mention Peter. I testified 'I know this Church is true. I was a long way from knowledge. But I was fervent in my belief. I did not have any idea the difficulties and sacrifices involved in trading faith for knowledge.
If I had known then, I would perhaps have stayed content with belief" p. That false notion is so widespread it deserves special notice here. They can be learned, but they can't be taught. Those who are willing to receive them, however, will receive them. But only when they are prepared to respect the limits which should always separate the sacred from the profane.
If your faith would increase because of this experience, you are not ready for it. The Second Comforter comes to confirm the faith which already resides in a person, not to produce that faith. Feelings of inferiority, or of not quite belonging, or of being less than you should be, all lead to the essential humility needed for the next step. You don't get the epiphany without confronting Satan. Even after such a marvelous experience, you still participate in the normal mortal activities.
Life will continue much the same as it did before, although the challenges may become greater. His love will crush you. It will overwhelm and intimidate you. It will bring you involuntarily to your knees in adoration and humility. It is not possible to feel love of this kind from Him and remain aloof of confessing, as Moses did: I know He lives, for I have seen Him. He has ministered to me" A footnote is included with this testimony: This is about bearing testimony of the process itself and the already declared doctrines. I am adding my weak voice to those of others who proclaim this to be true.
This is not about personal matters, the revelation of which would amount to improperly profaning the sacred, nor is it about preaching any new doctrines, which is altogether inappropriate. Our regrets will be because we did not seek more earnestly, pray more devoutly, fast more frequently, and gain a greater measure of truth and light than we gained here.
Change that for yourself. I found it very exciting and revealing of the process and what is required in our own lives if we wish for such an experience. It is much more than just desiring to confront God, but it is a process of changing our lives so that we become more like the Savior.
Not just in the opportunity to see and experience the Savior, but also in the growth and development of our own souls. Aug 03, Brad Hart rated it liked it. Denver Snuffer yes, that's his real name , the author of this book, has made a lot of noise within Mormonism in recent years. He claims to have even seen Jesus on more than one occasion.
As the "founder" of what has become known as "THE REMNANT" movement even though they don't claim any sort of hierarchy or leadership , Snuffer has emerged as the most prominent voice of a new and growing sect of Mormonism. I have been interested in this movement out of pure curiosity and little more , so I th Denver Snuffer yes, that's his real name , the author of this book, has made a lot of noise within Mormonism in recent years.
I have been interested in this movement out of pure curiosity and little more , so I thought I would give his book a chance.
Receiving the Second Comforter-Personal Visit From Christ? - LDS Gospel Discussion - ThirdHour
To be honest, I found the book to be somewhat boring. I didn't see anything that jumped out to me as controversial. The book, in a nutshell, tells people that if they are faithful enough, they too can possess the "Second Comforter" or the right to have Jesus personally visit you. Snuffer provides the reader with a "formula" that will lead the disciple to eventually stand in the presence of Jesus himself. My guess is those who are already skeptical about Mormonism will find Snuffer to be just another crazy man.
Those who already embrace the "follow the brethren" mantra will probably not even touch this book to begin with, since Snuffer is now an apostate he was excommunicated from the LDS church not long ago. In short, your perspective is what will determine your opinion of Snuffer, his book and this movement in general.
Personally, I found the book to be relatively harmless and, frankly, quite boring. As I said, there wasn't any glaring examples of "anti-Mormonism" in the book itself. Snuffer tries hard to rely on scripture and places tremendous emphasis on the importance of keeping the commandments, honoring covenants, etc. As for his claims to have seen Jesus, I don't really care, but then again I don't get bent around the axle over that sort of question. I tend to be a skeptic when it comes to such things and doubt anyone really "sees" Jesus. I also know that most traditional LDS won't give Snuffer the time of day especially now that he's been given the scarlet letter of apostasy.
For me personally, I don't have much of an opinion. It was mild vanilla in taste. I don't mean any disrespect to those who find Snuffer's work of value. To each their own. It just didn't do much for me. Feb 01, Ryan Daley rated it it was ok. Sometime interesting - but this book is far from a comprehensive dialogue on the subject and more of the dialogue of a hobbyist - who despite having a few beautiful moments in relation to the gospel entirely contradict himself repeatedly in the subject matter And seems to have gained popularity based upon the deep desire for members of the church to come closer to this subject rather than actually contribute to the subject He talks but without consistent understanding and uses the term sec Sometime interesting - but this book is far from a comprehensive dialogue on the subject and more of the dialogue of a hobbyist - who despite having a few beautiful moments in relation to the gospel entirely contradict himself repeatedly in the subject matter He talks but without consistent understanding and uses the term second comforter in such casual terms it's counterproductive to the discussion.
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I would lie if is didn't day I didn't learn something - it was just unfortunate that it was never really about the subject matter. Jan 20, Cliff rated it it was amazing. Only twice did I find him saying something that I just didn't know about whether I could agree or not. On those, I still don't know and will have to ponder them at length. I believe the man, and I agree with what he's saying. Not an easy book, but he's the "Real Deal". What he's teaching is valuable for each Latter-day Saint. Jun 02, Sarah rated it it was amazing.
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I agree with a bunch of the reviews about this books is good depending on how ready you are to follow ALL of the Commandments God has given us. It is an inspiring book, based on scriptures and is uplifting to the soul. It causes you to want to be a better person and love everyone. Now, who wouldn't want that? Jun 22, Taunia is currently reading it. I'm only into the 2nd chapter and I have this book marked up to the hilt!!
It's not something you skim through. It's a book for deep pondering. I'm totally loving it so far. Jun 22, Cherie rated it it was amazing. It took me weeks to read it, because I was taking my time to absorb. The message is pure, deep and powerful. A must read for all those whose spiritual gifts are not being magnified, or who need validation to call them forth!
Mar 09, Kyle rated it it was amazing. Deeply introspective and thought provoking. Not a fast read but triggered for me many hours of contemplation and self-evaluation. Even months after reading, I still find myself pondering many of the concepts I learned here. I have purchased several copies of this book as gifts, but it is one of those books that can only be read and digested if you are seeking and hungry for spiritual growth.
Dec 26, Drennan rated it it was amazing Shelves: One of my all time favorite books!!!!!!!! Dec 17, Matt rated it did not like it Shelves: The author has been excommunicated and currently offers people re-baptism via his website. Mar 26, Jenalyn added it. Jul 13, Tim Malone rated it really liked it. On my blog, I review a lot of LDS books. For some reason, most of them are not found in Deseret Book. Perhaps it is because some of them are considered controversial. He has written that he wants people to have to search them out, make an effort to find them.
I thought I had reviewed his first book, The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lo Source: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil. There is already a plethora of book reviews out there on Amazon, Goodreads, and various other sites. I thought it might be helpful to share my study notes from the introductory overview. Note that the numbers at the beginning of each paragraph correspond to the page numbers found in the second edition of the book. These are simply the notes I took as I read those pages. I always want to be able to teach from my notes.
The first is the Holy Ghost. The second is the Lord. This is a basic doctrine of the church. I think most people who have attended any LDS Sunday school class over the years have heard it at one time or another. The idea is that when we are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands, we should continue to humble ourselves before the Lord, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, seeking to live by every word of God.
We then have the promise that we may receive the other Comforter, which is to have the Lord minister unto us from time to time. Apparently, there are times when we need the comfort of a personal visit from the Lord to help us pass through trials. Besides, there are some things that can only be revealed in person. He taught that this promise is to be taken literally by all the Saints. It is not just a promise for Joseph or the current prophet of the Church. Joseph wanted us to understand that this is an actual, physical visit with the Savior to us.
This involves having the heavens opened.
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In other words, it should not seem strange or unusual to us to have or expect the Lord to visit us, while we are yet mortal. This is a promise to all the Saints. It is our heritage and a blessing for those who strive to keep his commandments. Obedience is a requirement. We should seek for and obtain this blessing. He intends to keep his promises, even if men do not. If we come to him in obedience, he has no intention of leading us along, only to disclose an exception. There is no exception. We can all receive Him as he has promised. In the Millennium, men will walk and talk with the Savior.
Any person who abides the laws that will be kept during the Millennium can expect to receive the promised blessings of the Millennium, including that of walking and talking with the Savior. It is the privilege of the saints today to receive the Lord, to separate ourselves from the world, to ask for and to receive the personal ministration of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil
This doctrine is a part of the fullness of the gospel. It is a promise of Jesus Christ unto those who love Him. If you obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel, exercise faith and come unto Christ, he will keep his promise. They require maturity, time and patience. The Church has wisely chosen to focus on the basic doctrines of salvation in the curriculum, especially since so many members are new to the gospel. As we grow and mature in the gospel, we are left in large measure to seek further light and knowledge on our own. Done the right way, with the right understanding, approached in humility as intended, it is right.
You can never outgrow the need for the saving ordinances. The Church is His medium for delivering the gospel. Therefore, it will not be something you leave behind. There are numerous publications and organizations, trying to append themselves to the church, attempting to satisfy this desire for higher knowledge.
Dialogue and Sunstone are two periodicals addressed to Mormon intellectuals. While there is much good found in their covers, there is also much criticism and even outright hostility toward the views of the Church in many of the papers and conferences of such organizations. Revelation does not necessarily come through critical thinking. Although we are commanded to study things out in our own minds before we turn to the Lord for a confirming witness of the truth, finding fault with the Church or those we sustain as its leaders does not bring us closer to the Lord.
To be learned is good if we hearken to the counsels of God. Humility is needed with intelligence. These approaches promote debate among the Saints which has never been unifying. I have read many stories of disenchanted individuals who report they had never heard of some doctrine or practice of the church until they read it on the FAIR website.
Sometimes the arguments composed to explain the questionable historical events do more harm than good, leaving seekers unsatisfied. The polemics are entertaining, even when they are not enlightening. They can be useful for defining issues and providing a source for further study, but they make no attempt to instruct in the process of receiving the Second Comforter. It is an attempt to show the reader a roadmap for going from where he or she is now to the position where the Lord can be received.
The book is not about the afterlife or some future millennial day when all mankind will see the Lord. Rather it is about receiving the Second Comforter during your present lifetime. The Book will explain what it means to receive the Second Comforter and outline a course of conduct to apply those teachings in your life. It is intended to provide a practical guide, an examination of what you must do in order to receive the promised blessing. It is not intended for mere academic inquiry. It is also not a scholarly work. It is about how the scriptures teach us to grow in light and truth until we reach a perfect day.
Scholars are some of our harshest critics. The greatest theologians in history have failed to crack open the heavens in the slightest. Reason alone does not provide light and truth. There are some irrational — or more correctly extra-rational — sources of truth as well. Angels do not come to us because we have an interesting paper to present to them. The well-schooled are not those who have received the greatest truths revealed to mankind. Angels visited and Christ ministered to fishermen and plow boys.
The greatest prophets of history came with less education than most modern-day high school graduates.
They had access to truth from another source. There is a significant distinction between the process followed by the revelators and the reasoning of theologians and scholars. Instead, it comes as people follow the principles of the gospel and obey the commandments of God. Scholars attempt to teach others to use analytical tools to reach reasoned conclusions.
Prophetic knowledge is not obtained merely by study, reason or logic. What we need is a practical process to discover what is required to get revelation and then we want to get that revelation. We want the truth through revelation. Scholars do not pretend to uncover new mysteries or revelations from God. They do no attempt to open the heavens for us. On the other hand, the scriptures do attempt to open the heavens to all, under specific conditions. Some knowledge can only be received by revelation. It is to be learned but is not to be taught. The primary focus of the teachings of the Church in Sunday school and Sacrament meetings is always going to be the fundamental principles of the gospel.
Immaturity leads some curious but unprepared folks to seek these things prematurely. Encouraging them in this before they are ready may result in deep frustration or even losing their testimony altogether. In most lives it will take many years of development before this process is appropriate. Those many years of development can best, perhaps only, be acquired by faithful service within the Church. Church service is the best means for obtaining the necessary preparation. The Church is literally preparing its members for citizenship in heaven. Through its institutions the ordinances which must precede and accompany the acquisition of mysteries are given to the members.
Seeking further light and knowledge is not independent the Church, but utterly reliant of it. We need the Church. The Church needs our strength and support. In Nauvoo, Joseph lamented: That limit also applies to angels. We decide what we are willing receive. If you decide you are willing to receive more, then you must follow the path to do so. There are rules which govern these things. We want to find and follow those rules. You cannot avoid the rules and then hope to get what they offer. This book is a guide to discover and apply those rules. Since they are unwilling to live a higher standard they will not be judged against that standard before they have first had a merciful season to prepare.
Almost anyone will accept truth if they are prepared to identify it as truth. But many people are unprepared, and cannot recognize it as true. So, for them, the Lord withholds information to allow them to prepare first. You have no right to impose upon unprepared souls, higher information than they are able to bear.